question about purling

[nonniemous]

inchainz  and I have been discussing this randomly, and I've been searching for an answer in all my knitting books, but I haven't found one.  So I come here, to the knitting group, fount of all wisdom re: knitting, and I ask:

When purling, if the first leg of the stitch is behind the needle, do you go through that instead, or do you always default to the leg that's in front of the needle?  Seems to me it would make things twist funny.  I know when I knit, I go through the first leg, front or back.  Purling front leg only can also result in a twist, so ...

Yeah, okay.  This is probably a really stupid question.  But it's itching at me!  Anyone have any wisdom to share?

Comments

[ysobel]

Regardless of how the stitch is mounted, you need to go through the right-most leg to get an untwisted stitch. If the front leg is the left leg, and you go through that instead, you'll end up with a twist.

[nonniemous]

Considering that I've always just gone through the front loop, not the near loop, I think I have probably just discovered why my knitting has that funny "lined" look running through it. *facepalm*

Thank you!

[sedge]

Yep - that's characteristic. It's fine when deliberate, but can make you use more yarn than you need to. And can also make your knitting tighter than it needs to be.

From the sounds of things, I'd guess that you might be a reverse combination knitter, which is to say that you wrap your knit stitches in the opposite direction from most Western knitters. (I am a reverse combined knitter myself.)

After purling, is the right leg in front of the needle?

It can be difficult to stay a reverse combined knitter for some stitch patterns, but I can give you some hints if you'd like.

[nonniemous]

I tend to be a loose knitter, but that might be a compensation from when I first learned and knit everything way too tight.

All I know about my knitting "style" is that I knit continental, because I've been tatting since I was a little girl, and the two-handed control was easy enough to transfer to knitting. As for the way the stitches lie on the needle, doesn't it depend on whether it's into a knit or purl in the previous row? Sometimes they do wind up with the right leg in front, but usually it's the left. Does that make sense?

[sedge]

For combination knitters, it depends on whether it was a knit or a purl in the previous row. For non-combination, the stitch always sits the same way on the needles regardless.

This is independent of continental vs. English/American.

Which way does the stitch sit after a knit stitch for you, and which way after a purl?

[nonniemous]

Knit stitch it sits right front over to left; purl is right leg back over to front left. That's assuming either knitting in the round or working back across a previously purled row. And hence my confusion, because I'm discovering wtih some lace patterns, that purl stitch falling differently makes things come out not quite right.

[sedge]

Ok. You're a regular combined knitter (which is actually what I expected once you said "continental"; it's the more natural combination for that style).

You have two options:

1. Change how you think about decreases (might not be necessary when you're working in the round). Most patterns are not written for combination knitting, as you've been finding.

Right leaning decreases (the decrease leans like this: /):When you see k2tog, you'll need to fiddle around the stitch mounts so that they go the other way. Here's what I do (there's other methods too): slip the individual stitches to your right needle purlwise (so the right leg ends up in front). Slip the stitches back to the left needle (you can do this in one motion). Knit the two stitches together.

Left leaning decreases (decrease leans the other way: \ ): these are the ones that are harder for Western non-combination knitters and easier for you. You'll see this written as SSK or SKP or Sl, k, PSSO, or a whole range of things. These you can just knit two stitches together.

Things get more complicated to describe when you start getting into the double decreases (three sts decreased to one). I will leave them as an exercise for the reader (cop-out!). If you can't work them out, let me know, and I'll see what I can do. :D

2. Change how you purl. Your two options as a continental knitter are both visible in videos on this page: http://www.knittinghelp.com/videos/purl-stitch . You'll need to choose from "continental purl" or "Norwegian purl". Pay close attention to the direction the needle moves in relation to the yarn - you can't just pick the yarn through the loop in the easy direction.

[nonniemous]

Okay, I do the "knit two together" (and actually knit three together") in this manner for the left leaning decreases already. And to compensate on the right leaning decreases, I would go in back against the stitch, left to right, instead of right to left. No wonder they were twisting funny. Reseating the stitch makes a whole lot more sense.

I honestly don't want to change how I purl; my current method is fast and looks just like my knit stitches, (when I don't get that odd twist in them); when I've tried changing it they come out tighter and smaller. But if I pay attention to the rest of this, I should be able to keep going the way I'm going.

Thank you EVER so much for all this! You've been fantastically helpful, and explained something I couldn't even articulate. ♥♥♥

[sedge]

You're quite welcome!

Having learned about combination knitting, I've learned to recognize the signs. :D But you're right, it's pretty uncommon for people to know about it.

[nonniemous]

For combination knitters, it depends on whether it was a knit or a purl in the previous row. For non-combination, the stitch always sits the same way on the needles regardless.

And with some thought, this is something I have never, ever been able to explain to people, even my Knitting Goddess who can practically knit with her eyes closed. No one's understood that it *does* matter to me, whether it was a knit or purl prior, and no could ever tell me what was going on with my knitting. Until now! *g*

[sedge]

Just don't let anyone tell you you're knitting "wrong". It can complicate matters, but there are ways to change how you do decreases and such that will help you fix those complications.

The main thing is that you end up with the results you want without hurting yourself.

[nonniemous]

Okay, some quick googling got me to Annie Modesitt's site where she talks about this. But I'm still confused as to how my purl stitches wind up switching which leg leads--or do I just purl up into the first leg whether it's in the front or the back?

re: "knitting wrong:" What's funny is my stitch'n'bitch buddies, fantastic knitters all, have watched me knit, to tell me "what I was doing wrong", and yet none of them have ever been able to identify what I was doing differently. And I have no idea how I picked up knitting like this, because no one I know does this style.

[sedge]

So let me made a guess about how you purl.

You bring the working yarn to the front. You put the needle in the stitch from the back and bring the needle over the working yarn from the right and over it to the left, then sweeping the yarn back through the stitch. This is a true mirror of a knit stitch.

Here's the continental purl:
Bring the working yarn to the front. Put the needle in the stitch from the back and bring the needle over the working yarn from the *left* and over it to the *right*.

The Norwegian purl (my favorite of the two):

Leaving the working yarn at the back, bring the needle around behind both the working yarn and the stitch. Put the needle in the stitch from behind. Reach back around to the working yarn again, scooping up the yarn from right to left, and bring the needle back through the stitch.

Seriously, go look at these videos: http://www.knittinghelp.com/videos/purl-stitch

you're almost certainly doing what they call Combination purl. Compare it to continental purl.

If you've got a friend who does regular combined, sit next to them and do your purls at the same time in slow motion. Watch how the needles move over the yarn to scoop it back. One of you will scoop from left to right; one from right to left.

[nonniemous]

Yup, You're exactly right. I did check out those videos, and I am definitely doing the combined purl. It's so much easier than the others! It seems really obvious once you see the various methods all together there. inchainz and I have plans to check out some local stitch'n'bitch groups this week; I'll make sure to do some additional comparisons.

The Norwegian purl looks hard!

And just knowing what's going on makes ALL the difference. Thank you, again, for the help!

[sedge]

You're welcome!

I love knowing things and learning more things and sharing what I know. So I'm glad I could help.

Have fun working out the decreases!

[nonniemous]

Hee! I found a cheat sheet by grumperina. But I think I'm going to table some of my more complicated patterns right now and knit some gauge swatches and get this all straight in my head.

And I understand and share your joy in both knowledge and sharing that knowledge. And it's so much fun when knowledge (yours) meets and fills a serious gap in knowledge (mine!).

*snoopy dance of joy*

[sedge]

Oooh, convenient for (as she says) those moments when the brain isn't up to working it out.

[sedge]

Come in from behind the leading leg of the stitch - so if you're knitting from right to left, and the right leg of the stitch is behind the needle, come in from behind that for purling.

[nonniemous]

Thank you! For some reason, it was never explained to me--or I never picked up on that being the proper technique. I've been trying to remember to knit that way, but wanted to know if that was actually correct. Good to know that I'm finally, after 8 or 9 years of knitting, getting it right! ;-)

I should have stuck to tatting...

[pennyplainknits]

I can't even clearly visualise what it is that you're talking about (it's late...) but I think going through the back of the stitch would leave it twisted, which you generally don't want.

[nonniemous]

My confusion lies in the fact that sometimes the back of the stitch is the front leg. But sedge is helping me sort it out in the other comments to this post. I never realized it could be so complicated!

[clare_dragonfly]

Apparently I am too late to the party to give you any advice or anything, but I wanted to comment anyway and say yay combined knitting :D